Topics

OK? space bar, enter, who knows


Monte Single
 

Hi Mike B, and List,

 

I read your very recent message about  viewing hidden files.

You said to press “space bar on the apply button”  and enter on the OK button.

Is there any rhyme, reason  or sequence  of knowing when to press which key on which control, including buttons?

 

In Confusion,

 

Monte

 

 


 

One can generally use either spacebar or enter on any button to activate it.

Enter virtually always works because it's the Windows method to activate.  Spacebar is more screen reader dependent, but it's awfully reliable.  It's always helpful to know that if one doesn't work, try the other.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Journalism 101:  If someone says it’s raining and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. It’s your job to look out the f**king window and find out which is true.

      ~ Jonathan Foster (attributed)


Ann Byrne
 

Alt-v, h, f

At 08:43 PM 2/22/2021, you wrote:

Hi Mike B, and List,



I read your very recent message about viewing hidden files.

You said to press "space bar on the apply button" and enter on the OK button.

Is there any rhyme, reason or sequence of knowing when to press which key on which control, including buttons?



In Confusion,



Monte





enes sarıbaş
 

Hi,

On specific programs, one or the other won't work, but generally in Windows, they appear interchangeable. You probably could hit alt o or alt k or whatever the shortcut key is too.

On 2/22/2021 8:47 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
One can generally use either spacebar or enter on any button to activate it.

Enter virtually always works because it's the Windows method to activate.  Spacebar is more screen reader dependent, but it's awfully reliable.  It's always helpful to know that if one doesn't work, try the other.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Journalism 101:  If someone says it’s raining and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. It’s your job to look out the f**king window and find out which is true.

      ~ Jonathan Foster (attributed)


Brad Snyder
 

I can’t answer for Mike, but in my many years of experience using Windows, pressing Apply, and pressing OK, accomplishes the same thing.  Only difference is that pressing Apply, applies your changes, while pressing OK, applies your changes, and closes the dialogue.


- Brad -


On Feb 22, 2021, at 20:43, Monte Single <mrsingle@...> wrote:

Hi Mike B, and List,
 
I read your very recent message about  viewing hidden files.
You said to press “space bar on the apply button”  and enter on the OK button.
Is there any rhyme, reason  or sequence  of knowing when to press which key on which control, including buttons?
 
In Confusion,
 
Monte
 
 


 

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 10:08 PM, Brad Snyder wrote:
Only difference is that pressing Apply, applies your changes, while pressing OK, applies your changes, and closes the dialogue.
-
That would be correct.  The only advantage to Apply is that it allows you to keep fiddling with any and all available options until you're happy with them, without closing the dialog in question.

I use the OK button when I know I'm finished tweaking, even if that's only one setting, and Apply if I want to or need to see how what I've done has affected things before I make that decision final, or reverse it/them, then use OK.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Journalism 101:  If someone says it’s raining and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. It’s your job to look out the f**king window and find out which is true.

      ~ Jonathan Foster (attributed)


Brad Snyder
 

That would also be correct.

- Brad -


On Feb 22, 2021, at 21:18, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 22, 2021 at 10:08 PM, Brad Snyder wrote:
Only difference is that pressing Apply, applies your changes, while pressing OK, applies your changes, and closes the dialogue.
-
That would be correct.  The only advantage to Apply is that it allows you to keep fiddling with any and all available options until you're happy with them, without closing the dialog in question.

I use the OK button when I know I'm finished tweaking, even if that's only one setting, and Apply if I want to or need to see how what I've done has affected things before I make that decision final, or reverse it/them, then use OK.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Journalism 101:  If someone says it’s raining and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. It’s your job to look out the f**king window and find out which is true.

      ~ Jonathan Foster (attributed)



Mike B
 

Hi Monte,
 
Sorry for the confusion.  I guess you could say it's a habit I created for myself for using the spacebar on Apply and enter on Okay.  Personal preference and nothing else.
Stay safe and take care.  Mike.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 6:43 PM
Subject: [win10] OK? space bar, enter, who knows

Hi Mike B, and List,

 

I read your very recent message about  viewing hidden files.

You said to press “space bar on the apply button”  and enter on the OK button.

Is there any rhyme, reason  or sequence  of knowing when to press which key on which control, including buttons?

 

In Confusion,

 

Monte

 

 


Bill White
 

Hi, Brad. I have not found that pressing OK applies your changes and closes the dialog.

 

What I have found is that pressing OK without pressing Apply invokes the changes temporarily, whereas pressing Apply followed by pressing OK invokes the changes permanently.

 

Bill White

 

billwhite92701@...

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brad Snyder
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 7:08 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] OK? space bar, enter, who knows

 

I can’t answer for Mike, but in my many years of experience using Windows, pressing Apply, and pressing OK, accomplishes the same thing.  Only difference is that pressing Apply, applies your changes, while pressing OK, applies your changes, and closes the dialogue.

 


- Brad -

 

On Feb 22, 2021, at 20:43, Monte Single <mrsingle@...> wrote:

 

Hi Mike B, and List,

 

I read your very recent message about  viewing hidden files.

You said to press “space bar on the apply button”  and enter on the OK button.

Is there any rhyme, reason  or sequence  of knowing when to press which key on which control, including buttons?

 

In Confusion,

 

Monte

 

 

 


Brad Snyder
 

Well, apparently things work differently on your computer, then on every other computer in the world.

- Brad -


On Feb 23, 2021, at 01:30, Bill White <billwhite92701@...> wrote:

Hi, Brad. I have not found that pressing OK applies your changes and closes the dialog.
 
What I have found is that pressing OK without pressing Apply invokes the changes temporarily, whereas pressing Apply followed by pressing OK invokes the changes permanently.
 
Bill White
 
 
From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brad Snyder
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2021 7:08 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] OK? space bar, enter, who knows
 
I can’t answer for Mike, but in my many years of experience using Windows, pressing Apply, and pressing OK, accomplishes the same thing.  Only difference is that pressing Apply, applies your changes, while pressing OK, applies your changes, and closes the dialogue.
 


- Brad -

 
On Feb 22, 2021, at 20:43, Monte Single <mrsingle@...> wrote:
 
Hi Mike B, and List,
 
I read your very recent message about  viewing hidden files.
You said to press “space bar on the apply button”  and enter on the OK button.
Is there any rhyme, reason  or sequence  of knowing when to press which key on which control, including buttons?
 
In Confusion,
 
Monte
 
 
 



Steve Dresser
 

Technically, Spacebar is the Windows keystroke for activating a form control (button, link, etc.), while Enter activates the default control which often produces the same result. If you happen to be focused on a control which isn’t the default, pressing Enter may yield unexpected results. Things get even more confusing when screen readers use Enter to activate Forms mode. The bottom line: Use the Spacebar to be absolutely sure.

 

Steve

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io <win10@win10.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: February 22, 2021 21:48
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] OK? space bar, enter, who knows

 

One can generally use either spacebar or enter on any button to activate it

Enter virtually always works because it's the Windows method to activate.  Spacebar is more screen reader dependent, but it's awfully reliable.  It's always helpful to know that if one doesn't work, try the other.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Journalism 101:  If someone says it’s raining and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. It’s your job to look out the f**king window and find out which is true.

      ~ Jonathan Foster (attributed)


 

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 02:35 PM, Steve Dresser wrote:
If you happen to be focused on a control which isn’t the default, pressing Enter may yield unexpected results.
-
I have never, in over 30 years of using Windows, seen Enter activate anything but the control with focus.  I've seen times where it doesn't, too, and there have been occasions where, for some bizarre reason, spacebar doesn't.

The default control always has focus, initially, by default, hence the name.  But if you shift focus elsewhere, neither Enter nor Spacebar will activate anything except the control with focus (and if what has focus isn't a control, it activates nothing).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Journalism 101:  If someone says it’s raining and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. It’s your job to look out the f**king window and find out which is true.

      ~ Jonathan Foster (attributed)


Timothy
 

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 03:39 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

The default control always has focus, initially, by default, hence the name.  But if you shift focus elsewhere, neither Enter nor Spacebar will activate anything except the control with focus (and if what has focus isn't a control, it activates nothing).

Not true. Try, for example, opening Folder Options (whether from Windows Explorer, the Control Panel, etc). Note that the default control is the "Open File Explorer to" combo-box. Tab to any other control, e.g. the "Browse folders" radio-buttons, and press Enter. As the OK button is the default button in this case, the button will be pressed and the Folder Options dialog will then close.

I'm not sure if JAWS still has this command, but when I used it a little over ten years ago, JAWSKey+E reported the default button which will be activated upon pressing Enter.

Timothy


 

Timothy,

            I presume that any long term user of Windows knows that you use neither spacebar nor enter to activate a given radio button in certain contexts, it gets activated simply by moving focus to it.

            If I have File Explorer Options, General Tab open, and tab to the Browse folder options area which has two radio buttons, I will get the one currently pressed noted as "Pressed," and if I shift focus to the other, it becomes pressed.  If I hit spacebar when focus is on either one, which is already checked by dint of having thrown focus there, and then hit spacebar the screen reader announces, "Pressed," but does not toggle the selection state.  Even if I have no screen reader on, and deal strictly with keyboard navigation, this is the behavior.  These are controls that are "activated by focus" and nothing else.  One hits neither spacebar nor enter to change them.

            Now, I'll absolutely agree that if I hit enter when I'm on one of those it activates the OK button, the default button control.  But you don't use either spacebar or enter to change the value for the radio button you want in the sections above.  You simply gain focus on the one you want in the section you are working with, then tab out to the next section.

            I'm talking about controls that actually require the use of either spacebar or enter to activate them, not those that "activate by focus."  Apples and oranges, really.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

Journalism 101:  If someone says it’s raining and another person says it’s dry, it’s not your job to quote them both. It’s your job to look out the f**king window and find out which is true.

      ~ Jonathan Foster (attributed)


Timothy
 

On Tue, Feb 23, 2021 at 04:16 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

I'm talking about controls that actually require the use of either spacebar or enter to activate them, not those that "activate by focus." Apples and oranges, really.

Yes I agree, but you said that "if what has focus isn't a control, it activates nothing". You can press Space on a combo-box, for example, and it will do nothing, but if you press Enter, it will activate the default button as assigned by whoever programmed in the default button. While dialogs in Windows Usually default to the OK button, other developers may opt to make the default button something else entirely which can be activated by the Enter key. Yes, most seasoned users will know that tab controls, combo-boxes, radio-buttons, etc will not do anything if one presses Space, but they will also know that Enter will activate the default button, e.g., a Next or OK button. I suppose there was enough confusion that the JAWS developers thought it necessary to create a keybind which reports what the default button is for a given dialog.

This default button behavior isn't that well documented as far as I know, so it may be useful for keyboard navigators to be aware of said behavior. Also every tab-stop will focus on elements that are interactable by the keyboard, e.g., arrow keys, pressing Enter/Space, etc. Other non-interactable elements, such as labels, explanation text, and descriptions, will not be focusable via the Tab key, and that's why all screen readers have at least one navigation mode that will allow users to traverse among non-interactable elements.

Timothy