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locked Request for comments/proposal: screen reader compatibility notices for unsupported screen readers #poll #wineyes

Joseph Lee
 

Hi everyone,

 

Given the recent news about end of sales for Window-Eyes in North America, I thought it’d be best to ask you the following question:

 

If a screen reader becomes unsupported, should this forum continue to promote its use for a while, and should Windows 10 release advisories be sent regarding it? If so, for how long?

 

Basically, I’d like to gather votes on whether we should let this forum drop discussion of Window-Eyes after September 2018 unless something drastic happens. Feel free to debate this proposal throughout this weekend, and the vote (which should be sent to the owner address) will close on June 1, 2017 at 23:59 PM Pacific. Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph
Joseph Lee
 

Hi,

One major addition: this is considered both a policy vote and an opinion poll. If this proposal is adopted, it’ll take effect in September 2017 once this forum cluster enters Fall Creators Update era and it’ll set precedence for future situations like the one described below. At the same time, it is an opinion poll to gauge overall responses to recent events.

I’d like to especially request Window-Eyes users to debate and vote on this proposal.

For those new to this forum: unlike other mailing lists where absolute policies are set by owners, this forum goes through community voting process. The leadership team cannot override poll results except for some emergency cases. It is implemented this way so leaders can receive feedback from the membership community when making policy decisions and for members to take part in shaping this forum’s policies and future. Any policy changes approved or rejected by members of the parent forum applies to all subgroups unless noted otherwise. In case of some policies, there might be slight differences in how subgroups interpret them.

Debates on proposals are always welcome on the list (but please do it with civility); votes should be sent to win10+owner@groups.io. Any votes sent to the forum will not count, nor change of heart (unless reasons are justified); to keep impartiality, I myself (as the head list representative and the vote counter) will not vote.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 1:51 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: [win10] Request for comments/proposal: screen reader compatibility notices for unsupported screen readers #Poll #WinEyes

 

Hi everyone,

 

Given the recent news about end of sales for Window-Eyes in North America, I thought it’d be best to ask you the following question:

 

If a screen reader becomes unsupported, should this forum continue to promote its use for a while, and should Windows 10 release advisories be sent regarding it? If so, for how long?

 

Basically, I’d like to gather votes on whether we should let this forum drop discussion of Window-Eyes after September 2018 unless something drastic happens. Feel free to debate this proposal throughout this weekend, and the vote (which should be sent to the owner address) will close on June 1, 2017 at 23:59 PM Pacific. Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph
Brian Vogel
 

Given the tendency for users to clutch their favorite programs to their metaphorical bosoms, holding on to them much like some of our close hominid relatives do their deceased infants, it's only appropriate to allow them to continue to be talked about for some period of time after support ends.

I wouldn't call that "promoting" the use of anything.  It's more like grief counseling and slowly easing someone into letting go.

Questions tend to disappear as the user base transitions to alternatives anyway.
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
David & his pack of dogs <myguidedogis@...>
 

Well, as someone who has jumped ship to JAWS from Window eyes, I vote No.  End the support of W E after September,2018. Not to raise the conspiracy flag but, now I know why I’ve been having trouble with W E the last few months.    

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 1:51 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: [win10] Request for comments/proposal: screen reader compatibility notices for unsupported screen readers #Poll #WinEyes

 

Hi everyone,

 

Given the recent news about end of sales for Window-Eyes in North America, I thought it’d be best to ask you the following question:

 

If a screen reader becomes unsupported, should this forum continue to promote its use for a while, and should Windows 10 release advisories be sent regarding it? If so, for how long?

 

Basically, I’d like to gather votes on whether we should let this forum drop discussion of Window-Eyes after September 2018 unless something drastic happens. Feel free to debate this proposal throughout this weekend, and the vote (which should be sent to the owner address) will close on June 1, 2017 at 23:59 PM Pacific. Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph
David & his pack of dogs <myguidedogis@...>
 

Well, using that metaphor, let’s just talk about it for decades like some people that I personally know that complain about people that have long since died. They refuse to move on and live in the past because it is easier to deal with psychiatrically, then moving on with one’s life. Hows that for a hot topic? Smile.  Seriously, Like mentioned before, there has to be an end date or you could have these people that refuse to move on, talking about it for years.     

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 2:10 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] Request for comments/proposal: screen reader compatibility notices for unsupported screen readers #Poll #WinEyes

 

Given the tendency for users to clutch their favorite programs to their metaphorical bosoms, holding on to them much like some of our close hominid relatives do their deceased infants, it's only appropriate to allow them to continue to be talked about for some period of time after support ends.

I wouldn't call that "promoting" the use of anything.  It's more like grief counseling and slowly easing someone into letting go.

Questions tend to disappear as the user base transitions to alternatives anyway.
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
Shaun Everiss
 

Well in my opinion, we should keep supporting the program as long as users use it up to the point where it is no longer usable, advisable to be used, etc.

On 27/05/2017 8:51 a.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,


Given the recent news about end of sales for Window-Eyes in North America, I
thought it'd be best to ask you the following question:


If a screen reader becomes unsupported, should this forum continue to
promote its use for a while, and should Windows 10 release advisories be
sent regarding it? If so, for how long?


Basically, I'd like to gather votes on whether we should let this forum drop
discussion of Window-Eyes after September 2018 unless something drastic
happens. Feel free to debate this proposal throughout this weekend, and the
vote (which should be sent to the owner address) will close on June 1, 2017
at 23:59 PM Pacific. Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph
Michael Massey <massey52@...>
 

Hi, Shaun. While I am not Joseph, I hate to burst your bubble, but I have a
sneaking suspicion that even though you voted on Joseph's proposal that your
vote may not count because as he instructed, messages are to be sent to the
list owner e-mail address provided in each and every e-mail sent to this
group.

On another note, this question has been bugging me every time I come across
the word ofcause. I know that you live in Austrailia, so this begs me to
ask the question. Is the word ofcause used in Austrailia for the two words
of course? Honestly, Shaun, I'm not picking on you, but every time I come
across the word ofcause, I do a double take. I thought that the words are
of course. Thanks.

Mike M

P.S. If you feel that I am being knit picky, I apologize. I was thinking
that the use of the word ofcause for the two words of course is an
Austrailian English use of the word ofcause. .

-----Original Message-----
From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Shaun Everiss
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 3:50 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] Request for comments/proposal: screen reader
compatibility notices for unsupported screen readers #Poll #WinEyes

Well in my opinion, we should keep supporting the program as long as users
use it up to the point where it is no longer usable, advisable to be used,
etc.




On 27/05/2017 8:51 a.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,



Given the recent news about end of sales for Window-Eyes in North
America, I thought it'd be best to ask you the following question:



If a screen reader becomes unsupported, should this forum continue to
promote its use for a while, and should Windows 10 release advisories
be sent regarding it? If so, for how long?



Basically, I'd like to gather votes on whether we should let this
forum drop discussion of Window-Eyes after September 2018 unless
something drastic happens. Feel free to debate this proposal
throughout this weekend, and the vote (which should be sent to the
owner address) will close on June 1, 2017 at 23:59 PM Pacific. Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph
Brian Vogel
 

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 01:51 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:
If a screen reader becomes unsupported, should this forum continue to promote its use for a while, and should Windows 10 release advisories be sent regarding it? If so, for how long?

I would seriously like clarification on what, precisely, you mean by "continue to promote its use" and "Windows 10 release advisories be sent regarding it."

I am trying to figure out what the latter would constitute, as once something is no longer supported I wouldn't think those would be generated from any source, as they really couldn't be with any definitive content other than, perhaps, someone using said unsupported screen reader stating that it is "officially dead," as in won't run at all correctly, under a given Version of Windows 10.  I imagine those sorts of information sharing will end up happening as a matter of course.

I am really unclear as to what is meant by continuing to promote the use of a given piece of software.  It does not seem to me that this group promotes the use of any specific piece of application software, though a great deal of applications get discussed by the membership with great enthusiasm.

People still bring up things like Outlook Express hacks, which I think is the right of any given member to do, though I think the use of a hacked version of a long unsupported e-mail client is absolutely insane from a security perspective.  I don't consider what the person bringing that up is doing amounts to "Windows 10 for Screen Readers Group" promotion of anything.  Open forums are not responsible for what their members elect to post about, though they may discourage and, in very specific circumstances forbid, e.g. pirated software, personal attacks, the posting of certain material.  Even then, it's not possible to prevent someone determined to post same from doing so, but it is up to the moderation team to remove it and, if necessary, ban the person who posted it.

I am trying to wrap my head around what is actually being asked here, and so far I can't really do it.   I would not support a position that says that members cannot discuss unsupported software that may still run under Windows 10 if there are members who wish to information share about same.  I do support the idea that, as far as "Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users" officialdom goes, that we do not actively encourage/promote use of said software as a matter of policy.  These are two entirely separate things. 
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
Joseph Lee
 

Hi,

Essentially, statements such as:

  • You need to perform workaround X when using a given release with a given screen reader.
  • You need to use specific build of a screen reader to use a Windows 10 release.

And similar statements. The procedure I had in mind was:

  1. If a screen reader becomes unsupported, find out when the next closest Windows 10 release would be.
  2. Count a year from the day the next release comes out. This is considered a transition period where the screen reader may become supported again or users will move to something else.
  3. If the screen reader remains unsupported after a year, discussions surrounding this screen reader should end (or become minimal).

Hence September 2018 was chosen.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 8:12 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] Request for comments/proposal: screen reader compatibility notices for unsupported screen readers #Poll #WinEyes

 

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 01:51 pm, Joseph Lee wrote:

If a screen reader becomes unsupported, should this forum continue to promote its use for a while, and should Windows 10 release advisories be sent regarding it? If so, for how long?

I would seriously like clarification on what, precisely, you mean by "continue to promote its use" and "Windows 10 release advisories be sent regarding it."

I am trying to figure out what the latter would constitute, as once something is no longer supported I wouldn't think those would be generated from any source, as they really couldn't be with any definitive content other than, perhaps, someone using said unsupported screen reader stating that it is "officially dead," as in won't run at all correctly, under a given Version of Windows 10.  I imagine those sorts of information sharing will end up happening as a matter of course.

I am really unclear as to what is meant by continuing to promote the use of a given piece of software.  It does not seem to me that this group promotes the use of any specific piece of application software, though a great deal of applications get discussed by the membership with great enthusiasm.

People still bring up things like Outlook Express hacks, which I think is the right of any given member to do, though I think the use of a hacked version of a long unsupported e-mail client is absolutely insane from a security perspective.  I don't consider what the person bringing that up is doing amounts to "Windows 10 for Screen Readers Group" promotion of anything.  Open forums are not responsible for what their members elect to post about, though they may discourage and, in very specific circumstances forbid, e.g. pirated software, personal attacks, the posting of certain material.  Even then, it's not possible to prevent someone determined to post same from doing so, but it is up to the moderation team to remove it and, if necessary, ban the person who posted it.

I am trying to wrap my head around what is actually being asked here, and so far I can't really do it.   I would not support a position that says that members cannot discuss unsupported software that may still run under Windows 10 if there are members who wish to information share about same.  I do support the idea that, as far as "Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users" officialdom goes, that we do not actively encourage/promote use of said software as a matter of policy.  These are two entirely separate things. 
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
Brian Vogel
 

Joseph,

          Then I guess, and I say this without malice, yours is a solution in search of a problem.   I have yet to see discussions of unsupported software not die an entirely natural death as the distance between the end of support and the current date grows larger.

           We have never had what I consider to be significant volume of discussion regarding Windows Eyes before the end of support was announced and most of the current traffic surrounds transitioning to something else.  Once those who are wise enough to jump ship while most others are doing the same have done so, discussion volume will decrease accordingly.    I do not think there is any reason to believe that any formal policy needs to be adopted.
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
Joseph Lee
 

Hi,

Hmmm, imagine more screen readers becoming unsupported, hence proposing the orderly exit framework.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 9:27 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] Request for comments/proposal: screen reader compatibility notices for unsupported screen readers #Poll #WinEyes

 

Joseph,

          Then I guess, and I say this without malice, yours is a solution in search of a problem.   I have yet to see discussions of unsupported software not die an entirely natural death as the distance between the end of support and the current date grows larger.

           We have never had what I consider to be significant volume of discussion regarding Windows Eyes before the end of support was announced and most of the current traffic surrounds transitioning to something else.  Once those who are wise enough to jump ship while most others are doing the same have done so, discussion volume will decrease accordingly.    I do not think there is any reason to believe that any formal policy needs to be adopted.
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
Brian Vogel
 

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 09:28 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hmmm, imagine more screen readers becoming unsupported, hence proposing the orderly exit framework.

Screen readers, e-mail clients, web browsers . . .

The software itself is entirely irrelevant to me.  And an orderly exit framework occurs naturally in every case I've seen in haunting technical forums since the late 1980s/early 1990s.

Hence my solution in search of a problem observation.
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
Joseph Lee
 

Hi,

On one hand, yes, I understand what’s up. On the other hand, some would hold special status for screen reading technologies, hence the dilemma.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 9:34 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] Request for comments/proposal: screen reader compatibility notices for unsupported screen readers #Poll #WinEyes

 

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 09:28 am, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hmmm, imagine more screen readers becoming unsupported, hence proposing the orderly exit framework.

Screen readers, e-mail clients, web browsers . . .

The software itself is entirely irrelevant to me.  And an orderly exit framework occurs naturally in every case I've seen in haunting technical forums since the late 1980s/early 1990s.

Hence my solution in search of a problem observation.
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
Brian Vogel
 

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 09:36 am, Joseph Lee wrote:
On the other hand, some would hold special status for screen reading technologies

 Which, to make it clear with regard to my own position, I do not.    Dead software is dead software.

--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
Lino Morales
 

I think WIN Eyes tpic should be dropped in SEPT. As Patrick Perdue used to say, "good boof and 73's". In in this case to WIN Eyes. I'm very dissappointed the newest FS Cast didn't touch on it's demise.


On 5/26/2017 5:28 PM, David & his pack of dogs wrote:

Well, using that metaphor, let’s just talk about it for decades like some people that I personally know that complain about people that have long since died. They refuse to move on and live in the past because it is easier to deal with psychiatrically, then moving on with one’s life. Hows that for a hot topic? Smile.  Seriously, Like mentioned before, there has to be an end date or you could have these people that refuse to move on, talking about it for years.     

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 2:10 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] Request for comments/proposal: screen reader compatibility notices for unsupported screen readers #Poll #WinEyes

 

Given the tendency for users to clutch their favorite programs to their metaphorical bosoms, holding on to them much like some of our close hominid relatives do their deceased infants, it's only appropriate to allow them to continue to be talked about for some period of time after support ends.

I wouldn't call that "promoting" the use of anything.  It's more like grief counseling and slowly easing someone into letting go.

Questions tend to disappear as the user base transitions to alternatives anyway.
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063.332

Like all weak men he laid an exaggerated stress on not changing one's mind.
   ~ Somerset Maugham

 
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