Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,

Normally I don't post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum,
but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders,
hence the below announcement.



An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for
Windows:



Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest
Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:



* When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
* Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to
various pages results in Settings app crashing.
* After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot
proceed.
* When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U,
the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when
trying to restart your computer.
* Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running
results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction
reference issue (with memory addresses given).



These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are
considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using
a program effectively). I'm keeping a very close eye on these, and have
advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to
notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of
these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this
spring, I'll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to "not compatible" list)
until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I'll
do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen
readers of their choice, including JAWS).



Cheers,

Joseph

Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,

Normally I don't post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent
forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not
Insiders, hence the below announcement.



An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for
Windows:



Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with
latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:



* When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
* Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to
various pages results in Settings app crashing.
* After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot
proceed.
* When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U,
the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens
when trying to restart your computer.
* Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running
results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to
instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).



These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders,
and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents
users from using a program effectively). I'm keeping a very close eye
on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via
Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an
earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable
build of Creators Update this spring, I'll consider red flagging JAWS
18 (adding to "not compatible"
list)
until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say
I'll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively
with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).



Cheers,

Joseph

Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,

Normally I don’t post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.

An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:

Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:

• When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
• Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
• After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
• When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
• Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).

These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I’m keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I’ll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to “not compatible” list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I’ll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).

Cheers,

Joseph

Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,

Normally I don’t post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.

 

An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:

 

Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:

 

• When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
• Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
• After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
• When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
• Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).

 

These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I’m keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I’ll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to “not compatible” list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I’ll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).

 

Cheers,

Joseph

Joseph,

Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don’t understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?

Al

Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,

Normally I don’t post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.

An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:

Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:

• When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
• Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
• After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
• When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
• Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).

These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I’m keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I’ll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to “not compatible” list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I’ll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).

Cheers,

Joseph

Hi,

The Creators Update is undergoing bug fix mode at the moment. The final build will not be shown for a little while (still reports itself as Version 1607, and this info must change in a build).

Cheers,

Joseph

Joseph,

Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don’t understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?

Al

Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,

Normally I don’t post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.

An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:

Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:

• When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
• Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
• After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
• When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
• Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).

These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I’m keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I’ll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to “not compatible” list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I’ll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).

Cheers,

Joseph

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

To: win10@win10.groups.io

Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:46 PM

Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate

Hi all,

Follow-up: Microsoft is aware of these issues.

As for red flagging JAWS: someone over at Twitter pointed out that VFO doesn’t necessarily support folks using beta versions of Windows and JAWS. However, I’m of the opinion that Windows Insiders have the right to test JAWS in beta builds in helping out with finding accessibility bugs and others, as we (the Insiders) have joined the Windows Insider Program to help Microsoft, VFO, NV Access and others by locating bugs and providing suggestions, and to make sure that all of us have the best experience with our screen readers by the time a stable build comes out. As for the use of the phrase “red flag”, I do admit that I may have crossed boundaries, so I’ll take that word back and say that, should any of the issues discussed in this thread (and a corresponding thread on Insiders subgroup) comes to stable builds, then an advisory will be sent asking folks to hold off for a while, like what we had to do last year when Version 1607 first shipped.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:01 PM
To: 'win10@win10.groups.io' <win10@win10.groups.io>
Subject: RE: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate

 

Hi,

The Creators Update is undergoing bug fix mode at the moment. The final build will not be shown for a little while (still reports itself as Version 1607, and this info must change in a build).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Robbins
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:49 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate

 

Joseph,

 

Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don’t understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?

 

Al

 

From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:26 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate

 

Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,

Normally I don’t post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.

 

An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:

 

Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:

 

• When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
• Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
• After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
• When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
• Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).

 

These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I’m keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I’ll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to “not compatible” list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I’ll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).

 

Cheers,

Joseph

I don't think you crossed the bounds. Honestly, it's info like this that we need to know, as had I not, then I'd updated, I would a been one pissed off little dude. So, thanks for the heads up.

Chris.

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate


Hi all,

Follow-up: Microsoft is aware of these issues.

As for red flagging JAWS: someone over at Twitter pointed out that VFO doesn't necessarily support folks using beta versions of Windows and JAWS. However, I'm of the opinion that Windows Insiders have the right to test JAWS in beta builds in helping out with finding accessibility bugs and others, as we (the Insiders) have joined the Windows Insider Program to help Microsoft, VFO, NV Access and others by locating bugs and providing suggestions, and to make sure that all of us have the best experience with our screen readers by the time a stable build comes out. As for the use of the phrase "red flag", I do admit that I may have crossed boundaries, so I'll take that word back and say that, should any of the issues discussed in this thread (and a corresponding thread on Insiders subgroup) comes to stable builds, then an advisory will be sent asking folks to hold off for a while, like what we had to do last year when Version 1607 first shipped.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:01 PM
To: 'win10@win10.groups.io' <win10@win10.groups.io>
Subject: RE: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate



Hi,

The Creators Update is undergoing bug fix mode at the moment. The final build will not be shown for a little while (still reports itself as Version 1607, and this info must change in a build).

Cheers,

Joseph



From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Robbins
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:49 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate



Joseph,



Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don't understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?



Al



From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:26 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate



Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,

Normally I don't post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.



An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:



Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:



a.. When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
b.. Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
c.. After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
d.. When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
e.. Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).


These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I'm keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I'll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to "not compatible" list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I'll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).



Cheers,

Joseph

----- Original Message -----

From: Shaun Everiss

To: win10@win10.groups.io

Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:56 PM

Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate

And this shows how much vfo care about users and things.
Sadly they own windoweyes and jaws now, I have supernova which
traditionally has good support and for everything else I have nvda.
This almost makes want me to post my old jaws licence to crackers, snap
all my jaws disks and send them back to vfo but the shipping just
doesn't justify it.
While while I used jaws at school even though it was late I never had
any support issues, I found it clunky and just stupid, the fact it came
at the end and not beginning of studdy is another matter but I will
never recomend this reader again.
True maybe put a warning about the betas and such but to be honest this
is just bad.
I am not supprised, on a tech blog a little bit ago windoweyes and other
stuff by ai squared which I think is part of vfo now posted they had
been hacked and the certifficate was compromised.
After the guy I read the blog off pushed into things and getting fobbed
off he learned that the hacked words of a compromised certifficate were
mis typed, the certifficate was due to expire and worse the old one may
have still 20 years on it.
If they don't post the right info who would trust them.
I am no saint, on one one of my gaming companies I work for I posted the
wrong info but when told I had I admitted to it and corrected things and
am making sure I never repeat the mistake.



On 13/02/2017 7:41 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
> I don't think you crossed the bounds. Honestly, it's info like this that we need to know, as had I not, then I'd updated, I would a been one pissed off little dude. So, thanks for the heads up.
>
> Chris.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Joseph Lee
>   To: win10@win10.groups.io
>   Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:46 PM
>   Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>   Hi all,
>
>   Follow-up: Microsoft is aware of these issues.
>
>   As for red flagging JAWS: someone over at Twitter pointed out that VFO doesn't necessarily support folks using beta versions of Windows and JAWS. However, I'm of the opinion that Windows Insiders have the right to test JAWS in beta builds in helping out with finding accessibility bugs and others, as we (the Insiders) have joined the Windows Insider Program to help Microsoft, VFO, NV Access and others by locating bugs and providing suggestions, and to make sure that all of us have the best experience with our screen readers by the time a stable build comes out. As for the use of the phrase "red flag", I do admit that I may have crossed boundaries, so I'll take that word back and say that, should any of the issues discussed in this thread (and a corresponding thread on Insiders subgroup) comes to stable builds, then an advisory will be sent asking folks to hold off for a while, like what we had to do last year when Version 1607 first shipped.
>
>   Thanks.
>
>   Cheers,
>
>   Joseph
>
>
>
>   From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@...]
>   Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:01 PM
>   To: 'win10@win10.groups.io' <win10@win10.groups.io>
>   Subject: RE: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
>   Hi,
>
>   The Creators Update is undergoing bug fix mode at the moment. The final build will not be shown for a little while (still reports itself as Version 1607, and this info must change in a build).
>
>   Cheers,
>
>   Joseph
>
>
>
>   From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Robbins
>   Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:49 PM
>   To: win10@win10.groups.io
>   Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
>   Joseph,
>
>
>
>   Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don't understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?
>
>
>
>   Al
>
>
>
>   From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
>   Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:26 PM
>   To: win10@win10.groups.io
>   Subject: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
>   Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,
>
>   Normally I don't post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.
>
>
>
>   An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:
>
>
>
>   Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:
>
>
>
>     a.. When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
>     b.. Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
>     c.. After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
>     d.. When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
>     e.. Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).
>
>
>   These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I'm keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I'll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to "not compatible" list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I'll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).
>
>
>
>   Cheers,
>
>   Joseph
>
>
>
>

OK, first off, how is this message of your's productive?

You cannot tell me that you actually feel VFO is totally to blaim for this! Look, I know that FS/VFO, call them what you will, has issues. I won't deny that. I think all of us on here can attest to that fact regardless if you are a JAWS fan or not.

This all said, it's one thing to express dismay for a product. I've done it, you've done it, and I'm sure we all've done it at one time or another.

It's another thing though to blaintantly sit here in a public forum that is as credible with a reputation as this and beat a company over the head. Do you know the whole story? Do you know why things in this build broke? I highly doubt it. I sure as heck don't know. I'm not going to tell you that VFO and that their developers have/had nothing to do with this, but VFO makes more products than just JAWS. They make Openbook, the Focus braille displays, etc. lots of other things. So, is it really fair to say that they are this bad based just on this one thing?

You might say, it's not just this one thing, OK, whatever. Doesn't matter. The point is, you're saying things which could hurt their reputation publicly quite badly, and if not careful, and enough people follow what you're saying, they could lose business, which could impose legal ramifications on you, which I'm sure you'd not want.

And, speaking, of! legal ramifications, I report people who pirate JFW, or for that mind even mention the possibility of doing so.

Sorry, Buster, no ands, ifs, or buts to it! NO exception, so, beware of that. So, you may wanna watch it with your comments on that note!

Chris.


Chris.

----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate


And this shows how much vfo care about users and things.
Sadly they own windoweyes and jaws now, I have supernova which
traditionally has good support and for everything else I have nvda.
This almost makes want me to post my old jaws licence to crackers, snap
all my jaws disks and send them back to vfo but the shipping just
doesn't justify it.
While while I used jaws at school even though it was late I never had
any support issues, I found it clunky and just stupid, the fact it came
at the end and not beginning of studdy is another matter but I will
never recomend this reader again.
True maybe put a warning about the betas and such but to be honest this
is just bad.
I am not supprised, on a tech blog a little bit ago windoweyes and other
stuff by ai squared which I think is part of vfo now posted they had
been hacked and the certifficate was compromised.
After the guy I read the blog off pushed into things and getting fobbed
off he learned that the hacked words of a compromised certifficate were
mis typed, the certifficate was due to expire and worse the old one may
have still 20 years on it.
If they don't post the right info who would trust them.
I am no saint, on one one of my gaming companies I work for I posted the
wrong info but when told I had I admitted to it and corrected things and
am making sure I never repeat the mistake.



On 13/02/2017 7:41 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
> I don't think you crossed the bounds. Honestly, it's info like this that we need to know, as had I not, then I'd updated, I would a been one pissed off little dude. So, thanks for the heads up.
>
> Chris.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joseph Lee
> To: win10@win10.groups.io
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Follow-up: Microsoft is aware of these issues.
>
> As for red flagging JAWS: someone over at Twitter pointed out that VFO doesn't necessarily support folks using beta versions of Windows and JAWS. However, I'm of the opinion that Windows Insiders have the right to test JAWS in beta builds in helping out with finding accessibility bugs and others, as we (the Insiders) have joined the Windows Insider Program to help Microsoft, VFO, NV Access and others by locating bugs and providing suggestions, and to make sure that all of us have the best experience with our screen readers by the time a stable build comes out. As for the use of the phrase "red flag", I do admit that I may have crossed boundaries, so I'll take that word back and say that, should any of the issues discussed in this thread (and a corresponding thread on Insiders subgroup) comes to stable builds, then an advisory will be sent asking folks to hold off for a while, like what we had to do last year when Version 1607 first shipped.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:01 PM
> To: 'win10@win10.groups.io' <win10@win10.groups.io>
> Subject: RE: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> The Creators Update is undergoing bug fix mode at the moment. The final build will not be shown for a little while (still reports itself as Version 1607, and this info must change in a build).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Robbins
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:49 PM
> To: win10@win10.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
> Joseph,
>
>
>
> Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don't understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
> From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:26 PM
> To: win10@win10.groups.io
> Subject: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
> Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,
>
> Normally I don't post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.
>
>
>
> An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:
>
>
>
> Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:
>
>
>
> a.. When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
> b.. Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
> c.. After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
> d.. When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
> e.. Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).
>
>
> These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I'm keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I'll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to "not compatible" list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I'll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>

On Feb 12, 2017, at 2:45 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:

Well ok, its not all vfo I agree.
I was just a little annoyed about the entire thing.
Now have in mind that this is text and text can be a really sucky way for communicating at the best of times.
You are right its not fully vfo's responsibility I agree with that.
But it seems from messages preceeding mine that vfo is shrugging off users by not actually doing much about their betas.
A warning would be nice, ie insider program may not be supported as such because of it being beta software and somethings will crash.
That I can respect, how we don't support betas period can mean to me that not only do they not support betas but that if there is a bug they won't fix it until they feel like it.
Or it could be that they can't support betas because of their nature.
However with all the competition going on I'd think all companies involved would know how to behave with users especially where the user or users spend a lot of dough on their spaciffic product.
Obviously the user expects a bug, that is obvious.
They expect the thing to crash, thats obvious.
They also expect that maybe something in say a beta could become unstable.
But if I was told by for example my isp that something is not supported, and no we won't fix it or can't be bothered to till we feel like at the extreme would make anyone wander just how reliable that company was.
The thing is, the statement is to one linish and to generalised.
Maybe it could have been worded better but there are many ways that statement could go, its just ambiguous.
It could simply be as harmless as software that is beta could have issues and we can't fully support those because of the nature, that is an acceptible reason.
But people could take it another way as I outlined above.
I am happy I don't use comercial readers as much, but still as a former user I'd really have liked if some of these companies just didn't put out blanket statements, it makes me wander how much they care or if we are just something that gives them cash for something that may or may not work or that we may have to pay more to get fixed, it does not leave me with a good feeling or impression.
I am sure well would really like to be giving them the benifit of the doubt here but some of these companies have had a history of bad user experience and when we didn't have more than those companies, that was something you complained about but put up with.
This is not the case anylonger to some extent and the gap will continue to grow as technology advances.
I really do hope all these companies work with eachother instead of doing their own thing, not that I can proove anything I just hope thats all.

On 13/02/2017 8:25 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
OK, first off, how is this message of your's productive?

You cannot tell me that you actually feel VFO is totally to blaim for this! Look, I know that FS/VFO, call them what you will, has issues. I won't deny that. I think all of us on here can attest to that fact regardless if you are a JAWS fan or not.

This all said, it's one thing to express dismay for a product. I've done it, you've done it, and I'm sure we all've done it at one time or another.

It's another thing though to blaintantly sit here in a public forum that is as credible with a reputation as this and beat a company over the head. Do you know the whole story? Do you know why things in this build broke? I highly doubt it. I sure as heck don't know. I'm not going to tell you that VFO and that their developers have/had nothing to do with this, but VFO makes more products than just JAWS. They make Openbook, the Focus braille displays, etc. lots of other things. So, is it really fair to say that they are this bad based just on this one thing?

You might say, it's not just this one thing, OK, whatever. Doesn't matter. The point is, you're saying things which could hurt their reputation publicly quite badly, and if not careful, and enough people follow what you're saying, they could lose business, which could impose legal ramifications on you, which I'm sure you'd not want.

And, speaking, of! legal ramifications, I report people who pirate JFW, or for that mind even mention the possibility of doing so.

Sorry, Buster, no ands, ifs, or buts to it! NO exception, so, beware of that. So, you may wanna watch it with your comments on that note!

Chris.


Chris.

----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate


And this shows how much vfo care about users and things.
Sadly they own windoweyes and jaws now, I have supernova which
traditionally has good support and for everything else I have nvda.
This almost makes want me to post my old jaws licence to crackers, snap
all my jaws disks and send them back to vfo but the shipping just
doesn't justify it.
While while I used jaws at school even though it was late I never had
any support issues, I found it clunky and just stupid, the fact it came
at the end and not beginning of studdy is another matter but I will
never recomend this reader again.
True maybe put a warning about the betas and such but to be honest this
is just bad.
I am not supprised, on a tech blog a little bit ago windoweyes and other
stuff by ai squared which I think is part of vfo now posted they had
been hacked and the certifficate was compromised.
After the guy I read the blog off pushed into things and getting fobbed
off he learned that the hacked words of a compromised certifficate were
mis typed, the certifficate was due to expire and worse the old one may
have still 20 years on it.
If they don't post the right info who would trust them.
I am no saint, on one one of my gaming companies I work for I posted the
wrong info but when told I had I admitted to it and corrected things and
am making sure I never repeat the mistake.



On 13/02/2017 7:41 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
> I don't think you crossed the bounds. Honestly, it's info like this that we need to know, as had I not, then I'd updated, I would a been one pissed off little dude. So, thanks for the heads up.
>
> Chris.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joseph Lee
> To: win10@win10.groups.io
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Follow-up: Microsoft is aware of these issues.
>
> As for red flagging JAWS: someone over at Twitter pointed out that VFO doesn't necessarily support folks using beta versions of Windows and JAWS. However, I'm of the opinion that Windows Insiders have the right to test JAWS in beta builds in helping out with finding accessibility bugs and others, as we (the Insiders) have joined the Windows Insider Program to help Microsoft, VFO, NV Access and others by locating bugs and providing suggestions, and to make sure that all of us have the best experience with our screen readers by the time a stable build comes out. As for the use of the phrase "red flag", I do admit that I may have crossed boundaries, so I'll take that word back and say that, should any of the issues discussed in this thread (and a corresponding thread on Insiders subgroup) comes to stable builds, then an advisory will be sent asking folks to hold off for a while, like what we had to do last year when Version 1607 first shipped.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:01 PM
> To: 'win10@win10.groups.io' <win10@win10.groups.io>
> Subject: RE: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> The Creators Update is undergoing bug fix mode at the moment. The final build will not be shown for a little while (still reports itself as Version 1607, and this info must change in a build).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Robbins
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:49 PM
> To: win10@win10.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
> Joseph,
>
>
>
> Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don't understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
> From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:26 PM
> To: win10@win10.groups.io
> Subject: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
> Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,
>
> Normally I don't post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.
>
>
>
> An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:
>
>
>
> Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:
>
>
>
> a.. When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
> b.. Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
> c.. After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
> d.. When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
> e.. Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).
>
>
> These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I'm keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I'll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to "not compatible" list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I'll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>

Just remember they may not of seen this release and all the problems any sooner than we did.

David Tanner

From my iPhone 7

On Feb 12, 2017, at 2:45 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:

Well ok, its not all vfo I agree.
I was just a little annoyed about the entire thing.
Now have in mind that this is text and text can be a really sucky way for communicating at the best of times.
You are right its not fully vfo's responsibility I agree with that.
But it seems from messages preceeding mine that vfo is shrugging off users by not actually doing much about their betas.
A warning would be nice, ie insider program may not be supported as such because of it being beta software and somethings will crash.
That I can respect, how we don't support betas period can mean to me that not only do they not support betas but that if there is a bug they won't fix it until they feel like it.
Or it could be that they can't support betas because of their nature.
However with all the competition going on I'd think all companies involved would know how to behave with users especially where the user or users spend a lot of dough on their spaciffic product.
Obviously the user expects a bug, that is obvious.
They expect the thing to crash, thats obvious.
They also expect that maybe something in say a beta could become unstable.
But if I was told by for example my isp that something is not supported, and no we won't fix it or can't be bothered to till we feel like at the extreme would make anyone wander just how reliable that company was.
The thing is, the statement is to one linish and to generalised.
Maybe it could have been worded better but there are many ways that statement could go, its just ambiguous.
It could simply be as harmless as software that is beta could have issues and we can't fully support those because of the nature, that is an acceptible reason.
But people could take it another way as I outlined above.
I am happy I don't use comercial readers as much, but still as a former user I'd really have liked if some of these companies just didn't put out blanket statements, it makes me wander how much they care or if we are just something that gives them cash for something that may or may not work or that we may have to pay more to get fixed, it does not leave me with a good feeling or impression.
I am sure well would really like to be giving them the benifit of the doubt here but some of these companies have had a history of bad user experience and when we didn't have more than those companies, that was something you complained about but put up with.
This is not the case anylonger to some extent and the gap will continue to grow as technology advances.
I really do hope all these companies work with eachother instead of doing their own thing, not that I can proove anything I just hope thats all.

On 13/02/2017 8:25 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
OK, first off, how is this message of your's productive?

You cannot tell me that you actually feel VFO is totally to blaim for this! Look, I know that FS/VFO, call them what you will, has issues. I won't deny that. I think all of us on here can attest to that fact regardless if you are a JAWS fan or not.

This all said, it's one thing to express dismay for a product. I've done it, you've done it, and I'm sure we all've done it at one time or another.

It's another thing though to blaintantly sit here in a public forum that is as credible with a reputation as this and beat a company over the head. Do you know the whole story? Do you know why things in this build broke? I highly doubt it. I sure as heck don't know. I'm not going to tell you that VFO and that their developers have/had nothing to do with this, but VFO makes more products than just JAWS. They make Openbook, the Focus braille displays, etc. lots of other things. So, is it really fair to say that they are this bad based just on this one thing?

You might say, it's not just this one thing, OK, whatever. Doesn't matter. The point is, you're saying things which could hurt their reputation publicly quite badly, and if not careful, and enough people follow what you're saying, they could lose business, which could impose legal ramifications on you, which I'm sure you'd not want.

And, speaking, of! legal ramifications, I report people who pirate JFW, or for that mind even mention the possibility of doing so.

Sorry, Buster, no ands, ifs, or buts to it! NO exception, so, beware of that. So, you may wanna watch it with your comments on that note!

Chris.


Chris.

----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate


And this shows how much vfo care about users and things.
Sadly they own windoweyes and jaws now, I have supernova which
traditionally has good support and for everything else I have nvda.
This almost makes want me to post my old jaws licence to crackers, snap
all my jaws disks and send them back to vfo but the shipping just
doesn't justify it.
While while I used jaws at school even though it was late I never had
any support issues, I found it clunky and just stupid, the fact it came
at the end and not beginning of studdy is another matter but I will
never recomend this reader again.
True maybe put a warning about the betas and such but to be honest this
is just bad.
I am not supprised, on a tech blog a little bit ago windoweyes and other
stuff by ai squared which I think is part of vfo now posted they had
been hacked and the certifficate was compromised.
After the guy I read the blog off pushed into things and getting fobbed
off he learned that the hacked words of a compromised certifficate were
mis typed, the certifficate was due to expire and worse the old one may
have still 20 years on it.
If they don't post the right info who would trust them.
I am no saint, on one one of my gaming companies I work for I posted the
wrong info but when told I had I admitted to it and corrected things and
am making sure I never repeat the mistake.



On 13/02/2017 7:41 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
> I don't think you crossed the bounds. Honestly, it's info like this that we need to know, as had I not, then I'd updated, I would a been one pissed off little dude. So, thanks for the heads up.
>
> Chris.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joseph Lee
> To: win10@win10.groups.io
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Follow-up: Microsoft is aware of these issues.
>
> As for red flagging JAWS: someone over at Twitter pointed out that VFO doesn't necessarily support folks using beta versions of Windows and JAWS. However, I'm of the opinion that Windows Insiders have the right to test JAWS in beta builds in helping out with finding accessibility bugs and others, as we (the Insiders) have joined the Windows Insider Program to help Microsoft, VFO, NV Access and others by locating bugs and providing suggestions, and to make sure that all of us have the best experience with our screen readers by the time a stable build comes out. As for the use of the phrase "red flag", I do admit that I may have crossed boundaries, so I'll take that word back and say that, should any of the issues discussed in this thread (and a corresponding thread on Insiders subgroup) comes to stable builds, then an advisory will be sent asking folks to hold off for a while, like what we had to do last year when Version 1607 first shipped.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:01 PM
> To: 'win10@win10.groups.io' <win10@win10.groups.io>
> Subject: RE: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> The Creators Update is undergoing bug fix mode at the moment. The final build will not be shown for a little while (still reports itself as Version 1607, and this info must change in a build).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Robbins
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:49 PM
> To: win10@win10.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
> Joseph,
>
>
>
> Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don't understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
> From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:26 PM
> To: win10@win10.groups.io
> Subject: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>
>
>
> Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,
>
> Normally I don't post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.
>
>
>
> An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:
>
>
>
> Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:
>
>
>
> a.. When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
> b.. Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
> c.. After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
> d.. When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
> e.. Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).
>
>
> These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I'm keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I'll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to "not compatible" list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I'll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: David Tanner

To: win10@win10.groups.io

Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 4:00 PM

Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate

Just remember they may not of seen this release and all the problems any sooner than we did.

David Tanner

From my iPhone 7

> On Feb 12, 2017, at 2:45 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
>
> Well ok, its not all vfo I agree.
> I was just a little annoyed about the entire thing.
> Now have in mind that this is text and text can be a really sucky way for communicating at the best of times.
> You are right its not fully vfo's responsibility I agree with that.
> But it seems from messages preceeding mine that vfo is shrugging off users by not actually doing much about their betas.
> A warning would be nice, ie insider program may not be supported as such because of it being beta software and somethings will crash.
> That I can respect, how we don't support betas period can mean to me that not only do they not support betas but that if there is a bug they won't fix it until they feel like it.
> Or it could be that they can't support betas because of their nature.
> However with all the competition going on I'd think all companies involved would know how to behave with users especially where the user or users spend a lot of dough on their spaciffic product.
> Obviously the user expects a bug, that is obvious.
> They expect the thing to crash, thats obvious.
> They also expect that maybe something in say a beta could become unstable.
> But if I was told by for example my isp that something is not supported, and no we won't fix it or can't be bothered to till we feel like at the extreme would make anyone wander just how reliable that company was.
> The thing is, the statement is to one linish and to generalised.
> Maybe it could have been worded better but there are many ways that statement could go, its just ambiguous.
> It could simply be as harmless as software that is beta could have issues and we can't fully support those because of the nature, that is an acceptible reason.
> But people could take it another way as I outlined above.
> I am happy I don't use comercial readers as much, but still as a former user I'd really have liked if some of these companies just didn't put out blanket statements, it makes me wander how much they care or if we are just something that gives them cash for something that may or may not work or that we may have to pay more to get fixed, it does not leave me with a good feeling or impression.
> I am sure well would really like to be giving them the benifit of the doubt here but some of these companies have had a history of bad user experience and when we didn't have more than those companies, that was something you complained about  but put up with.
> This is not the case anylonger to some extent and the gap will continue to grow as technology advances.
> I really do hope all these companies work with eachother instead of doing their own thing, not that I can proove anything I just hope thats all.
>
>
>
>> On 13/02/2017 8:25 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>> OK, first off, how is this message of your's productive?
>>
>> You cannot tell me that you actually feel VFO is totally to blaim for this! Look, I know that FS/VFO, call them what you will, has issues. I won't deny that. I think all of us on here can attest to that fact regardless if you are a JAWS fan or not.
>>
>> This all said, it's one thing to express dismay for a product. I've done it, you've done it, and I'm sure we all've done it at one time or another.
>>
>> It's another thing though to blaintantly sit here in a public forum that is as credible with a reputation as this and beat a company over the head. Do you know the whole story? Do you know why things in this build broke? I highly doubt it. I sure as heck don't know. I'm not going to tell you that VFO and that their developers have/had nothing to do with this, but VFO makes more products than just JAWS. They make Openbook, the Focus braille displays, etc. lots of other things. So, is it really fair to say that they are this bad based just on this one thing?
>>
>> You might say, it's not just this one thing, OK, whatever. Doesn't matter. The point is, you're saying things which could hurt their reputation publicly quite badly, and if not careful, and enough people follow what you're saying, they could lose business, which could impose legal ramifications on you, which I'm sure you'd not want.
>>
>> And, speaking, of! legal ramifications, I  report people who pirate JFW, or for that mind even mention the possibility of doing so.
>>
>> Sorry, Buster, no ands, ifs, or buts to it! NO exception, so, beware of that. So, you may wanna watch it with your comments on that note!
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: Shaun Everiss
>>  To: win10@win10.groups.io
>>  Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:56 PM
>>  Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>>
>>
>>  And this shows how much vfo care about users and things.
>>  Sadly they own windoweyes and jaws now, I have supernova which
>>  traditionally has good support and for everything else I have nvda.
>>  This almost makes want me to post my old jaws licence to crackers, snap
>>  all my jaws disks and send them back to vfo but the shipping just
>>  doesn't justify it.
>>  While while I used jaws at school even though it was late I never had
>>  any support issues, I found it clunky and just stupid, the fact it came
>>  at the end and not beginning of studdy is another matter but I will
>>  never recomend this reader again.
>>  True maybe put a warning about the betas and such but to be honest this
>>  is just bad.
>>  I am not supprised, on a tech blog a little bit ago windoweyes and other
>>  stuff by ai squared which I think is part of vfo now posted they had
>>  been hacked and the certifficate was compromised.
>>  After the guy I read the blog off pushed into things and getting fobbed
>>  off he learned that the hacked words of a compromised certifficate were
>>  mis typed, the certifficate was due to expire and worse the old one may
>>  have still 20 years on it.
>>  If they don't post the right info who would trust them.
>>  I am no saint, on one one of my gaming companies I work for I posted the
>>  wrong info but when told I had I admitted to it and corrected things and
>>  am making sure I never repeat the mistake.
>>
>>
>>
>>  On 13/02/2017 7:41 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>>  > I don't think you crossed the bounds. Honestly, it's info like this that we need to know, as had I not, then I'd updated, I would a been one pissed off little dude. So, thanks for the heads up.
>>  >
>>  > Chris.
>>  >
>>  >   ----- Original Message -----
>>  >   From: Joseph Lee
>>  >   To: win10@win10.groups.io
>>  >   Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:46 PM
>>  >   Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   Hi all,
>>  >
>>  >   Follow-up: Microsoft is aware of these issues.
>>  >
>>  >   As for red flagging JAWS: someone over at Twitter pointed out that VFO doesn't necessarily support folks using beta versions of Windows and JAWS. However, I'm of the opinion that Windows Insiders have the right to test JAWS in beta builds in helping out with finding accessibility bugs and others, as we (the Insiders) have joined the Windows Insider Program to help Microsoft, VFO, NV Access and others by locating bugs and providing suggestions, and to make sure that all of us have the best experience with our screen readers by the time a stable build comes out. As for the use of the phrase "red flag", I do admit that I may have crossed boundaries, so I'll take that word back and say that, should any of the issues discussed in this thread (and a corresponding thread on Insiders subgroup) comes to stable builds, then an advisory will be sent asking folks to hold off for a while, like what we had to do last year when Version 1607 first shipped.
>>  >
>>  >   Thanks.
>>  >
>>  >   Cheers,
>>  >
>>  >   Joseph
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@...]
>>  >   Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:01 PM
>>  >   To: 'win10@win10.groups.io' <win10@win10.groups.io>
>>  >   Subject: RE: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   Hi,
>>  >
>>  >   The Creators Update is undergoing bug fix mode at the moment. The final build will not be shown for a little while (still reports itself as Version 1607, and this info must change in a build).
>>  >
>>  >   Cheers,
>>  >
>>  >   Joseph
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Robbins
>>  >   Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:49 PM
>>  >   To: win10@win10.groups.io
>>  >   Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   Joseph,
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don't understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   Al
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
>>  >   Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:26 PM
>>  >   To: win10@win10.groups.io
>>  >   Subject: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,
>>  >
>>  >   Normally I don't post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >     a.. When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
>>  >     b.. Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
>>  >     c.. After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
>>  >     d.. When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
>>  >     e.. Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I'm keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I'll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to "not compatible" list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I'll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >   Cheers,
>>  >
>>  >   Joseph
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Yup. I completely agree. That doesn't mean that I'm excusing it, but hopefully it possibly explains it.

Chris.

----- Original Message -----
From: David Tanner
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate


Just remember they may not of seen this release and all the problems any sooner than we did.

David Tanner

From my iPhone 7

> On Feb 12, 2017, at 2:45 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well ok, its not all vfo I agree.
> I was just a little annoyed about the entire thing.
> Now have in mind that this is text and text can be a really sucky way for communicating at the best of times.
> You are right its not fully vfo's responsibility I agree with that.
> But it seems from messages preceeding mine that vfo is shrugging off users by not actually doing much about their betas.
> A warning would be nice, ie insider program may not be supported as such because of it being beta software and somethings will crash.
> That I can respect, how we don't support betas period can mean to me that not only do they not support betas but that if there is a bug they won't fix it until they feel like it.
> Or it could be that they can't support betas because of their nature.
> However with all the competition going on I'd think all companies involved would know how to behave with users especially where the user or users spend a lot of dough on their spaciffic product.
> Obviously the user expects a bug, that is obvious.
> They expect the thing to crash, thats obvious.
> They also expect that maybe something in say a beta could become unstable.
> But if I was told by for example my isp that something is not supported, and no we won't fix it or can't be bothered to till we feel like at the extreme would make anyone wander just how reliable that company was.
> The thing is, the statement is to one linish and to generalised.
> Maybe it could have been worded better but there are many ways that statement could go, its just ambiguous.
> It could simply be as harmless as software that is beta could have issues and we can't fully support those because of the nature, that is an acceptible reason.
> But people could take it another way as I outlined above.
> I am happy I don't use comercial readers as much, but still as a former user I'd really have liked if some of these companies just didn't put out blanket statements, it makes me wander how much they care or if we are just something that gives them cash for something that may or may not work or that we may have to pay more to get fixed, it does not leave me with a good feeling or impression.
> I am sure well would really like to be giving them the benifit of the doubt here but some of these companies have had a history of bad user experience and when we didn't have more than those companies, that was something you complained about but put up with.
> This is not the case anylonger to some extent and the gap will continue to grow as technology advances.
> I really do hope all these companies work with eachother instead of doing their own thing, not that I can proove anything I just hope thats all.
>
>
>
>> On 13/02/2017 8:25 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>> OK, first off, how is this message of your's productive?
>>
>> You cannot tell me that you actually feel VFO is totally to blaim for this! Look, I know that FS/VFO, call them what you will, has issues. I won't deny that. I think all of us on here can attest to that fact regardless if you are a JAWS fan or not.
>>
>> This all said, it's one thing to express dismay for a product. I've done it, you've done it, and I'm sure we all've done it at one time or another.
>>
>> It's another thing though to blaintantly sit here in a public forum that is as credible with a reputation as this and beat a company over the head. Do you know the whole story? Do you know why things in this build broke? I highly doubt it. I sure as heck don't know. I'm not going to tell you that VFO and that their developers have/had nothing to do with this, but VFO makes more products than just JAWS. They make Openbook, the Focus braille displays, etc. lots of other things. So, is it really fair to say that they are this bad based just on this one thing?
>>
>> You might say, it's not just this one thing, OK, whatever. Doesn't matter. The point is, you're saying things which could hurt their reputation publicly quite badly, and if not careful, and enough people follow what you're saying, they could lose business, which could impose legal ramifications on you, which I'm sure you'd not want.
>>
>> And, speaking, of! legal ramifications, I report people who pirate JFW, or for that mind even mention the possibility of doing so.
>>
>> Sorry, Buster, no ands, ifs, or buts to it! NO exception, so, beware of that. So, you may wanna watch it with your comments on that note!
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Shaun Everiss
>> To: win10@win10.groups.io
>> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>>
>>
>> And this shows how much vfo care about users and things.
>> Sadly they own windoweyes and jaws now, I have supernova which
>> traditionally has good support and for everything else I have nvda.
>> This almost makes want me to post my old jaws licence to crackers, snap
>> all my jaws disks and send them back to vfo but the shipping just
>> doesn't justify it.
>> While while I used jaws at school even though it was late I never had
>> any support issues, I found it clunky and just stupid, the fact it came
>> at the end and not beginning of studdy is another matter but I will
>> never recomend this reader again.
>> True maybe put a warning about the betas and such but to be honest this
>> is just bad.
>> I am not supprised, on a tech blog a little bit ago windoweyes and other
>> stuff by ai squared which I think is part of vfo now posted they had
>> been hacked and the certifficate was compromised.
>> After the guy I read the blog off pushed into things and getting fobbed
>> off he learned that the hacked words of a compromised certifficate were
>> mis typed, the certifficate was due to expire and worse the old one may
>> have still 20 years on it.
>> If they don't post the right info who would trust them.
>> I am no saint, on one one of my gaming companies I work for I posted the
>> wrong info but when told I had I admitted to it and corrected things and
>> am making sure I never repeat the mistake.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13/02/2017 7:41 a.m., Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>> > I don't think you crossed the bounds. Honestly, it's info like this that we need to know, as had I not, then I'd updated, I would a been one pissed off little dude. So, thanks for the heads up.
>> >
>> > Chris.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Joseph Lee
>> > To: win10@win10.groups.io
>> > Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:46 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > Follow-up: Microsoft is aware of these issues.
>> >
>> > As for red flagging JAWS: someone over at Twitter pointed out that VFO doesn't necessarily support folks using beta versions of Windows and JAWS. However, I'm of the opinion that Windows Insiders have the right to test JAWS in beta builds in helping out with finding accessibility bugs and others, as we (the Insiders) have joined the Windows Insider Program to help Microsoft, VFO, NV Access and others by locating bugs and providing suggestions, and to make sure that all of us have the best experience with our screen readers by the time a stable build comes out. As for the use of the phrase "red flag", I do admit that I may have crossed boundaries, so I'll take that word back and say that, should any of the issues discussed in this thread (and a corresponding thread on Insiders subgroup) comes to stable builds, then an advisory will be sent asking folks to hold off for a while, like what we had to do last year when Version 1607 first shipped.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Joseph
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 1:01 PM
>> > To: 'win10@win10.groups.io' <win10@win10.groups.io>
>> > Subject: RE: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > The Creators Update is undergoing bug fix mode at the moment. The final build will not be shown for a little while (still reports itself as Version 1607, and this info must change in a build).
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Joseph
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Robbins
>> > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:49 PM
>> > To: win10@win10.groups.io
>> > Subject: Re: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Joseph,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Very frustrating information, but thanks for sharing. Don't understand why this type stuff happens. Will they release this build in this condition to general users or fix first?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Al
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
>> > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 12:26 PM
>> > To: win10@win10.groups.io
>> > Subject: [win10] Advisory for JAWS users (from Windows Insiders): numerous issues found when running JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build #JAWS #MSFTEnable #Narrator #WinTenCreatorsUpdate
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi everyone, especially JAWS users,
>> >
>> > Normally I don't post messages from Insiders subgroup on this parent forum, but the below advisory is important for JAWS users who are not Insiders, hence the below announcement.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > An important advisory on Creators Update Preview builds and JAWS for Windows:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Numerous issues were documented in regards to using JAWS 18 with latest Creators Update build (build 15031). These include:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > a.. When Windows key is pressed, Start menu does not appear.
>> > b.. Opening Settings app (Windows+I) and attempting to navigate to various pages results in Settings app crashing.
>> > c.. After locking your computer, when trying to sign in, you cannot proceed.
>> > d.. When you try to turn off your computer by pressing Windows+X, U, U, the computer does not turn off while JAWS is running. Same happens when trying to restart your computer.
>> > e.. Launching Narrator (Control+Windows+ENTER) while JAWS is running results in a pop-up advising users to terminate Narrator due to instruction reference issue (with memory addresses given).
>> >
>> >
>> > These are some of the issues found by I and other Windows Insiders, and are considered showstoppers (very critical issues that prevents users from using a program effectively). I'm keeping a very close eye on these, and have advised Windows Insiders to file feedback items via Feedback Hub app and to notify VFO. The workaround is going back to an earlier build. If any of these shows up while users are using stable build of Creators Update this spring, I'll consider red flagging JAWS 18 (adding to "not compatible" list) until VFO and/or Microsoft rectifies them (and I am serious when I say I'll do this, as it is critical that users use Windows 10 effectively with screen readers of their choice, including JAWS).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Joseph
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>